Author Topic: it just gets worse  (Read 997 times)

tarcus/Kevin

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it just gets worse
« on: March 18, 2009, 11:18:29 AM »
all gone
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 04:37:13 PM by tarcus »
CHIPMUNKS;LIKE ALL ANIMALS ARE FOR LIFE NOT JUST FOR FASHION STATUS.

sarah-J

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Re: it just gets worse
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2009, 12:44:02 PM »
I'm really sorry to hear yet more bad news, not a good time at the mo for you.

Sometimes they do just eat the babies for no reason, but as things have changed in your aviary it could also be the reason, were the babies def Angie's, or could they have been Camille's?  I had 3 females and they did eat the babies once but I never could tell if it was the mum or one of the others females that did it.

If you only have Angie with Andrew and Brad, they would fight over the only female anyway, so best to keep them apart until you can find a new home, or get a new female.

Sarah.

whistler6752

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Re: it just gets worse
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2009, 12:55:32 PM »
Sorry for your loss, but I feel everybody on this forum reads far to much into everything, anthropomorphism is the best word for it. These are animals, and solitary animals at that, they do not enjoy each others company, they tolerate each other at best. They only play with each other as youngsters and then it's only a metherd used to learn how to mate and fight. If people insist on keeping Chipmunks together sooner or later it will result in some kind of trouble, chewed ears ,lost tails, infantaside or death. The animal welfare bill states that its the responsibility of keepers to house animals together where it's appropriate for the animals welfare, or alone in the case where that is appropriate, to avoid stress and cruelty. By keeping Chipmunks together I feel you are all in breach of the act and causing stress and unnecessary cruelty. Sorry for the rant but it sadens me to hear about these unnecessary loses, I hope I've not offended anybody. Mike.

chris

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Re: it just gets worse
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2009, 06:29:32 PM »
Sorry for your loss so soon after Camille it can't have been easy.

Doghouse135

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Re: it just gets worse
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2009, 06:50:04 PM »
I'm sorry for your loss too

With regard to what Mike has said - I'm sure people are not offended by your opinions - it's not that kind of place here but I do know that I for one, would like to live in an 'ideal world' and let the chippies have company.  I think my problem has always been that I've had it drummed into me that all other pets that I've had - rabbits, guinea pigs etc need company of their own.  The only exception that I have encountered before was Syrian hamsters and they have to be kept on their own too.

I've got 2 males living together quite happily but I'd never entertain trying to keep more than that together and certainly not have females in the same room as them either, let alone living together permanently.

I guess we're all learning - you've probably got a few years on chipmunk ownership compared to us newbies eh Mike ??   :notworthy:
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whistler6752

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Re: it just gets worse
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2009, 07:33:57 PM »
Yep, have kept them continually from the late 70's. They are reliable breeders and good mothers, and don't eat babies when kept alone, as they should be. Only trying to help, Mike.

p.s. If you must try and give them company perhaps single sex groups should be the order of the day.

Nate

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Re: it just gets worse
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2009, 08:29:02 PM »
Just a horrible thing to discover tarcus and so soon after Camille.

Mike, I do agree chipmunks must be one of the most anthropomorphised creatures kept as pets in the UK. Possibly because the few sources of information on them often conflict with each other, and that chipmunks quite often respond very well to their owners but can behave quite differently to each other. As we know now chipmunks behave differently to each other at different times throughout their lives, one day a pair which have been (or appear to have been) good friends for months or years can suddenly seem to hate the sight of each other.

Before I even got my first chipmunk when doing my research I was under the impression that it was possible to keep groups of chipmunks. I still do believe that's possible and that neither animal would be living in stress. I've read books which gave the impression they'd been written by an author that had actually kept pet chipmunks, I went to sites like http://www.chipmunkery.co.uk and certainly had the idea that things would be OK. I've come round to thinking now that in the wild chipmunks do live apart and only come together for mating. But there's still plenty of published material out there which talk about chipmunks living in a colony. If you're new to keeping chipmunks you're likely to start of with one and can be very easily believe it is lonely. I've learnt since that it's probably very happy, and loneliness is just in the owners mind.

However, I do believe it's possible to have more than one chipmunk as a pet. Providing that is you have plenty of space and time, because no matter how your chipmunks are getting along today things could all change tomorrow, and sometimes permanently. So to keep more than one chipmunk you do have to consider either that you can provide separate large aviary for each chipmunk or find new homes for some. I only have couples at most in an aviary, which is their choice not mine, and these are all siblings. I'm as confident as I can be that those which are living in pairs are leading contented happy lives and not under any stress from each other. I have matures males living together which can be seen playing together as if they were just weeks old. However I am coming round to the idea that this is rare, possibly very exceptional. I do have a theory why two of my males who live together get on so well, which I will write about on another day. But I doubt if I will ever have another pair which behave in that way.

I must have been very lucky indeed when I bred mine. I found the mothers to be very good, doing all the work. But like many animals I did find that most of my mothers needed to be separated from the other mothers, but I've read on other sites where aunties are described as playing an active part in the upbringing of a sisters young. In light of tarcus most recent experience this is like skating on thin ice, and for absolute safety even all the males must be kept separate whilst mother brings up her offspring alone. I did have a few amazing fathers who actively got involved, especially after the young were weaned nearly, but I also had fathers that didn't want to know. Now we also know there can be fathers that can attack the young, but I doubt there is a way of knowing what a male will be like from normal day to day behaviour. This is one aspect of keeping chipmunks where it's very hard to resist anthropomorphising what you think is happening.

I do disagree that we are all in breech of the animal welfare bill, as it also states 'A person commits an offence if he knew, or ought reasonably to have known, that the act, or failure to act, would have that effect or be likely to do so'. So I am grateful to owners like tarcus who make the effort to share their experiences with us all, as I think we know there are many hundreds of pet owners out there who don't care or make much of any effort to try to understand what makes their pet tick. I think we are all learning and have a desire to keep our pets healthy and happy.

As soon as I get some time, the new things I've learnt from this forum is pressing me to update my advice pages on the main site.

Hope you keep posting your opinions Mike, and in time we can make this site a rich and definitive source for the care of pet chipmunks in the UK.

Doghouse135

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Re: it just gets worse
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2009, 09:15:09 PM »
Hear hear Nate - the information available to new chippie owners is seriously lacking and I think that we can play an important part in ensuring our experiences are shared. 

What I have found is just as soon as you think you've got it sussed, the little b*ggers do something to throw you completely out of kilter  :angry1:

Karen x ----- x

whistler6752

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Re: it just gets worse
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2009, 09:19:39 PM »
Hi Nate, I was speaking genrely, there are always exceptions, over the years I have taken in several Chipmunks that have suddenly and savagely attacked their owners with very little warning. I've had several hand tame Chips, one was so tame he would come out in the garden and run about freely and when startled by anything would run back up my leg and sit on my shoulder. He once spent the whole day at a bird show sat on my shoulder. I had several like that but he was the only one that didn't turn nasty. I believe there is some hormonal change that occurs and a normally placid individual can very quickly turn into a monster. You need to be vigilant at breeding time and again in the Autumn, when hording for the winter takes a grip they can become very territorial. Much as I like my Chipmunks I can't help thinking that because of their, at times difficult behaver and sudden character changes, they don't really make very good pets, excellent interesting animals to keep, but not pets. Mike.

Doghouse135

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Re: it just gets worse
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2009, 06:10:46 PM »
Ooops - Sorry Tarcus - didn't realise you'd had chippies for so long.  Didn't mean to categorise you as a newbie  ::)
Karen x ----- x

sarah-J

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Re: it just gets worse
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2009, 09:14:47 PM »
Interesting posts recently, thanks mike for putting us all in our place! lol (only joking).  :wave:

we try to do the right thing, but not necessarily getting it right. I originally had chips in 98/2000, With really only the advice from the pet shop not to have more males than females, Also couldn't find much more info on keeping them I was quite naive in thinking that I could manage, even having a large bird cage i thought I was doing a good job.

So when starting again, i improved on what I had before, investing time and money in building an aviary, finding things to entertain them and looking after them the best I knew how.  Only after having problems late last year, i couldn't find any info and came across this forum. Since then it has been great to get advice from everyone and try to pass on help, all though this will always be difficult to get right as everyone has there own experiences, or knowledge even if it can make us feel that we have been doing it wrong, But with out the help we would all get in a right pickle!  :icon_scratch:

it's great to have all the different members with lots or little knowledge to keep us all informed with funny, sad or informative posts. So thankyou mike for keeping us all on the ground and look forward to more posts from you.  :icon_thumleft:

Sarah.

chris

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Re: it just gets worse
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2009, 09:26:52 PM »
I don't believe  any of  us have done anything wrong, maybe some haven't done anything right, but we are here to learn from each others experiences and try to make sure we do the best for our chips. However to be told we are all possibly breaking the animal welfare law (ref a recent post) is a big statement when even the people that make the laws make alot of them on generalisations of how animals live in the wild. If we took things to the  limit no animal should be kept in captivity. However if we look after animals well and try to give them everything they need they can live  fulfilled and happy lives  living together as a group as well as  us taking an active part in their lives. There is alot more to animal welfare than laws can provide and books that are written. Personal experiences with people who care about animals and can talk together on a forum like this  can make a difference, and help animals and owners alike. What it doesn't need is negative input that can upset or even put people off keeping chips. The forum is here to help not criticise and since I got Scrat and Chip it has been my first choice for help and advice from fellow chipmunk keepers.
My thanks to Nate for providing a fantastic and informative website and forum

Nate

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Re: it just gets worse
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2009, 01:06:16 PM »
Ooops - Sorry Tarcus - didn't realise you'd had chippies for so long.  Didn't mean to categorise you as a newbie  ::)

I'm guilty of that too, sorry Tarcus.  :icon_salut:

Nate

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Re: it just gets worse
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2009, 01:30:23 PM »
I don't believe  any of  us have done anything wrong, maybe some haven't done anything right, but we are here to learn from each others experiences and try to make sure we do the best for our chips. However to be told we are all possibly breaking the animal welfare law (ref a recent post) is a big statement when even the people that make the laws make alot of them on generalisations of how animals live in the wild. If we took things to the  limit no animal should be kept in captivity. However if we look after animals well and try to give them everything they need they can live  fulfilled and happy lives  living together as a group as well as  us taking an active part in their lives. There is alot more to animal welfare than laws can provide and books that are written. Personal experiences with people who care about animals and can talk together on a forum like this  can make a difference, and help animals and owners alike. What it doesn't need is negative input that can upset or even put people off keeping chips. The forum is here to help not criticise and since I got Scrat and Chip it has been my first choice for help and advice from fellow chipmunk keepers.
My thanks to Nate for providing a fantastic and informative website and forum


Thanks for that, but it's really you members that make this forum what it is. As i said in an earlier post, the diverse range of experiences I've read here make me want to re-write some of my pages. The difficulty with chipmunks is how differently one can behave compared to another. If you got a chipmunk for the first time it's going to be pot luck to some extent as to whether it will be a shy one which sleeps a lot, or a bold one which can form a very strong bond with you. Mike describes one such chipmunk which he could take outside. I've also had a couple which have stood out from the rest in their attachment to me, and that could be the type that most owners would like to have. But those special chipmunks are in the minority, however you can go a long way with taming them, but you have to put in the hours. You can load the dice by trying to find a breeder who has experience and will let you choose the pick of the litter. I think the bold cheeky babies that come up to your hand are the most likely to be the easiest to bond with.

I would still use the terms 'pets' when talking about my chipmunks, but you could end up with a 'pet' that you can only really watch. Even that would be enough for me, as I still find them fascinating, I guess it comes down to how you define the word pet. I really do think we are not in breech of the animal welfare bill, as most chipmunks in captivity will live longer than if they were in the wild. If they have a life without stress and constant stimulation they should also lead a happy life with their owner.

jennyb

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Re: it just gets worse
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2009, 11:34:04 PM »
Hi Tarcus, i'm sorry to hear about the babies. Like Doghouse i have owned many rodents and usually kept more than one, the worst mistake we made was with our first rodents - Syrian Hamsters, i was only about 6 at the time and the pet shop said you could keep more than one but sadly we found that not to be the case, the two Hamsters fought until separated, after buying a book on Hamsters we found out that Hamsters must live alone. Now whenever we get a new animal species we always buy a book first and read up thoughly on the animal. Apart from Hamsters all other rodents i have kept have been social, although not some Chipmunks. I have learned alot from all the Chipmunks i have kept, some have enjoyed company, others haven't, some tolerate each other and others just don't get on at all, i have to say that most of them have got on together, there has only been a handful who i have had problems with. I have been keeping Chipmunks twelve years now and have had approximately twenty, all these Chipmunks have been individual in character and have lived varying ages. I have quite a section on my website about Chipmunks where i have pictures and videos of my latest ones and some of my older ones too although the photos are not as high quality and i'm not sure about the layout. If anyone would like to have a look i can give you the password in a private message, it would be good to get an opinion on it.
Asriel,Abi,Hermione,Lottie,Isabella, Willow,Nugget,Sandi,Amber Jr,Mia,Tiny,Scabbers,Millie, Ariana(Chipmunks), Elle, Minstrel & Jake (Cats).
 
www.chirpiechipmunkz.webs.com